Updated Discussion Question

Thinking about the discussion thread on yesterday's post, I refined the question.

What I'd prefer to know is whether the normal American young woman would be more offended by a strange man who touched her in a non-threatening, though obviously sexual, way, like say a pat on the backside or by a strange man who told her the way she was dressed was immodest, immoral or inappropriate.

I really am going somewhere with this. I think the answer says something about our culture and I'll make my point after I hear from a few more of you.

Comments

[imajackson]

Without doubt most girls raised on a diet of popular culture would be more offended with a man commenting her clothing is immoral. Our girls are indoctrinated to think that if they are found sexually appealing (i.e."Hey, you're hot!") then they have worth. Any comment hinting they they have dressed inappropriately will be met with scorn and defiance. The pop culture tells kids that they should not be defied in any way, and they should not tolerate any restraints on their choices. So a comment that they are dressed improperly for public- will be offensive to them. How is that for backward?

[Stephanie in AR]

I believe that most young woman would express some sort of outrage--from mild excuse me to loud yell--and confront the person so to appear 'proper' and not loose. After a few deep breaths, she would feel proud or successful because she must be desirable or 'hot' for a total stranger to put his hands on her. In talking to friends, family, and others she might express outrage but it will be as part of her own drama and there will be a slight smile for more parental others and larger ones for friends. Who doesn't grin big when winning the game? As for being told she is dressed improperly, it would still be an outrage both inside and out. After all, she is playing by the rules of acceptable dress--and they must be what winners wear because that is what is plastered everywhere. Also there would be a definite 'who does he think he is' but truely outraged where the situations was not. In a self-centered world no one has a right to object to anything that isn't officially objectable. Bad phrasing but if the mns media isn't offended then why should a stranger be? It's HIS problem not hers.

[JimmyV]

As you phrased the question yesterday, I would have said that greater offense would be taken towards the accuser of immodesty.

As you have re-phrased the question, I have more doubts since the physical contact is more offensive than the verbal suggestion of sexual relations. However, I would say the average woman would be more offended when told that she is immodestly dressed than when she is improperly touched.

[Lucy]

Interesting question. I have a hard time with it because to negatively comment on someone's clothing is rude, no matter who you are. Obviously, to touch inappropriately is rude, too, but if it was non-threatening, I don't know. There's touching and then there's *touching*. I've been touched in club situations and when I was younger and single, I found it kind of funny (I might have been more worldly than some of your other readers). Now that I'm married, I'd feel more violated. But I'd still be more insulted by a negative comment on my appearance (deserved or not).

I will say that my answer would be different if I were asked which I would rather have happen to my daughter. I would much rather she be told that she was dressed inappropriately than touched in any way by someone not her family or husband! And when I was a jr. high leader years ago, my girls would tell me about being grabbed in the hallways at school and I thought (and still think) that was horribly degrading. Humorously, my son (who's six) told a relative that she was dressed inappropriately at a family get-together. She was, but no one was going to tell her that.

[Hannah]

I think Stephanie is right on.

[Jessica]

I am a 23 year old woman, college student, decidedly secular (which I believe is the "average American young woman" you are referring to), but not given to dressing very immodestly (my uniform is usually a fitted t-shirt or sweater with jeans or a long skirt, perhaps knee-length in summer). I also have long hair, down to my waist, which I have noticed that strangers often seem compelled to touch without invitation, and I am always disturbed and offended at any violation of my personal space. While I would be embarrassed if a strange man (or woman) told me I was dressed immodestly, I would absolutely be more offended by unwanted touching. I know from going out and discussions with my college roommates that they all feel more or less the same way. While it may be flattering when a young man makes it obvious that he finds you attractive, it only remains so while he conducts himself like a gentleman.

[Gothelittle]

I am not part of the secular Western society touted in the media. I had a traditional upbringing. If you tell me I'm dressed inappropriately, you'll probably be wrong... I might be offended or amused or just take it in stride.

But seriously, do not touch me. One fellow in college got carried away in joking and tried to tickle me. He didn't mean anything bad by it and apologized once I responded... by hitting him.

Luckily, most of the guys I hung out with were also traditional sorts and as soon as I hit him they were all threatening him with beatings if he ever touched me again, which he never did. ^.^

[CalLady]

The touching, definitely. That is offensive, cruel, and wrong.

If it helps, you may know that I'm 23 and unattached.

BTW, ay I be so bold as to suggest that readers answering this question answer for themselves and not for others that they don't know?

[Ginny]

I will have to make a guess on this one, because I am not a normal American young woman, but I would say the most offensive thing would be the comment. That's too bad, too. :-( I would love to see where you are going with this... :-D

[Sherri]

I was a young woman once upon a time. I was touched in the manner you described twice as a young woman and it troubled me a bit at the time but I brushed it off as nothing too bad. I think I would have been mortified if a strange man had told me I was dressed immodestly. I never had that happen however. I did have a youth pastor who told me I dressed too nice if you can imagine that!

I have a preteen daughter who is very modest, shy, and tender-hearted. I think either of the situations you described would upset her tremendously.

[Marci]

No. I think she would be more offended by a man slapping her on the backside than telling her she was immodestly dressed.

[MSBradshaw]

The touching is acceptable by society at large--even desirable as a sign of being "hot" as others have stated it. I don't think it would be looked upon by the majority of young women--even the "good girls"--as improper, but rather as affirmation.

Being told of the inappropriateness of her clothing would most likely (if she understood) bring resentment and derision.

However, can we just let it slide? Can we allow our sons to be exposed to such lewdness and raunchy dress? Can we allow our daughters to view this as normal, acceptable, and God-honoring? Is this fair to our Christian brothers--those who try to keep a pure heart?

It's possible that our best course and witness and our best way of dealing with it is to walk humbly--and modestly--ourselves, and to teach our children to do so. It's amazing how much impact that can have. (However, this does not protect our sons in immediate situations which seem to inevitably arise.)

[sara]

I think both would be unwelcome.

[Mrs. Chancey]

Our pop culture is priming girls to expect sexual advances from younger and younger ages. It's really frightening to watch the trends. I think it's almost a given now that the average American girl is schooled to view a come-on by a guy (even a good-looking stranger) as a compliment and something to be sought. And with fashions promoting anything but modesty, the trend to be "sexy" is equated with popularity and even freedom. Just reading the feedback that folks like pro-modesty writer Wendy Shalit get from "free" girls, the answer to your question is clear: these young women are far more offended if someone comments that their clothing is immodest or inappropriate than if some "cute" stranger makes a sexual advance.

It's one of the terrible, brutal ironies of the feminist sexual revolution that girls who are basically treated like prostitutes by random "hook-ups" are considered "free" and "empowered," while girls who hold back and preserve modesty are considered "repressed" and "prudish." Oh, for a return to good, old-fashioned prudery! Sexual modesty is a GIFT--not a curse. As my sainted grandmother used to say, "Who wants to pay for the cow when the milk is free?" The young women who use their bodies as a tool for social acceptance are selling themselves to the lowest bidders, not realizing there is so much more worth waiting for.

[Kat]

Interesting question. It would depend on how she viewed the guy who was touching her. If he struck her as scary, she might feel fearful, but because of societal issues, she would conclude that was a problem that was entirely his. I think that she would be always offended at someone telling her that she was immodestly dressed though - and rightfully so if that is what she's been taught/allowed/encouraged to be immodest at home as well as what she has learned from society's standards. If she knows better however, she will be offended, but with a bit of conviction deep down inside, I suspect. Modesty is taught from speech and modelling modest dress/behavior. If one is accustomed to being topless (as in some foreign countries), they will have no comprehension of how it could be immodest.

[Kristen R.]

I respect the views that the others have stated, but I believe that several of those views are naive. American girls are not, contrary to popular belief, completely deprived of all morality and lovers of the immoral. Rather, many are immoral because they believe that is how they can get love. American girls are definitely conditioned to act like the immoral is normal, yet I do not believe that the desire for true love and respect can ever be completely erased. Therefore, I believe that most girls would outwardly act more offended if told they were immodest, probably with geniune shock, but I also think that any girl young enough to not be used to such physical advances would be just as offended. Today's girl is taught that if she were to respond outwardly, she would be stigmatized and shunned. She would not pretend to be outraged so as to be 'proper,' she would pretend NOT to be outraged to be 'proper.' But I don't believe that American girls are as dead to morality as several readers seemed to say: they simply believe that true love and respect no longer exist, so therefore the only option is sexual advances.
For me personally, as a sixteen-year-old homeschooler, I would physically harm anyone who tried to touch me. :-)
Another note I find interesting: all the single young women who have posted have said the touching would be most offensive, yet several others have declared positively that the commment would be most offensive.

[domestic_hippie]

a strange man patting my backside...this has happened and I think I would prefer the latter in it was given in a concerned and honest manner

[Chelsea]

Personally (single and 19) I'd get very mad if a guy touched me like that (and he'd pay for it one way or the other!). But I'm not too sure about the rest of the women I know. I suspect they'd be more upset depending on who it was....Someone they liked (either someone they were attracted to or knew) or if it was someone else.
On the subject of modesty....How many people do you know who take criticism well? I mean most of us are human and humility or acceptance of criticism (even when it's well-meant) isn't in our nature regardless of what it's about. Someone who is making an effort to dress modestly already might be grateful for the input or be upset that the effort they were putting in wasn't appreciated. Personally unless the person making the comment were my parent or similar I would be a bit upset...What they consider modest might not match with my opinion and it's not really their business. Criticism of any sort should be well considered before it is offered. I'd imagine you'd get a negative response to most any kind of personal criticism like that. "You spend too much time watching TV" or "You're manners could be improved." Regardless, it is extremely rude to comment on someone's appearance in a negative way. Both things mentioned (touching and comment) are both rude, well intentioned or no.

[Mrs. McG]

Answering only for myself, I would say that is a close one. I would be highly embarrased if it had to be pointed out to me by a man that I was dressed in an immodest way but I would externally outraged if someone laid a hand on me who had no place to do so. The first incident would mortify me the second incident might cause me to slap said offending individual.

[Sarah]

I, personally would be exptremely angry if someone touched me in an ungentlemanly way. Having two (over 6 foot) brothers, I would ask them to kill the said person. On the other hand, I would probably not be very offended if someone told me that I was wearing immidest clothing. I would probably already know it anyway.

[Michelle]

I don't know where most of you are living, but I don't know any girl who would respond to being touched with anything other than sincere, obvious and loud outrage.

As for the strange man lecturing me on my clothes, if I was in a crowded public area I'd just ignore him since I'm not in the habit of discussing my clothing with strange men. If I wasn't in a public place among people, I'd probably start running until I was, because that's just creepy.

[Charity F.]

Okeey.... Here's my 2 cents.

It is innappropriate for any men other than dads, brothers or pastors to make any type of comment about womens clothing. (unless to compliment it of course) This may be a little extreme, but almost all of the men who've dared to comment to me generally treated women in general like dirt and they were just trying to push my buttons. In my experience, wearing skirts has made me a magnet for the creepiest of the creeps who think I'm some sort of toy that they can torment to see how much of a "prude" I am.

As far as the whole touching bit, I hate men touching me and I make that extremely clear. I also agree with the other poster that random people think it's their business to mess with my waist-length hair.

Something I think you might have missed is that homosexual men are generally very touchy with girls. People seem to think it's cute but it's put me in some awkward situations because people thought something horrifically 'bad' had happened to me because I was the only one who had an issue with it.

I'm sorry I can't answer your question fully, but I hope this helps.

[k.]

I would be outraged if a man touched me in a non-threatening sexual way. I would be similarly outraged if a man lectured me on my choice of clothing.

If I was in a crowded public place, I would probably ignore them both, however, I would *not* want to be alone with either of them any situation.

[jenn]

Haven't read through all the other comments although I'm sure I'd love to if I find the time....

My first thoughts are that a young woman in America would be offended by both, for "different" reasons that actually lead back to the same issue.

A young woman would be offended by a non-threatening sexual gesture because her body was being touched without her permission, even it if wasn't threatening. It, of course, would depend on the stranger. If she found the stranger attractive (for any variety of personal preferences) she may be less offended and more flattered. If it was someone she was not attracted to, she would probably be offended for the invasion of personal space without permission or invitation, which is probably healthy.

I think if she were told she was dressed immodestly, *regardless* of whether she found the person attractive or not, she would definitely be offended for someone else putting "boundaries" and "restrictions" on her, not allowing her freedom of choice.

One thing we tend to forget in the war for freedom of choice (in any area or stream of life) is that our choices have consequences. Our choices are a cause that have an affect, positively or negatively. So a young woman's immodest choices for the clothes she's wearing may have a negative affect on several people around her (her family, other women, men, etc.) but as we insist upon not being defined or labeled, we neglect the consequences of our "free choice".

What I think is most remarkable about all this is that, even if a woman found the man attractive, if he told her she was dressed immodestly she would be more offended than if he actually touched her in a way that was more than friendly, even if it was uninvited.

We are incredibly self-centered people.

[sarah]

I'm 30, married, English and secular.

If someone tells me I'm immodestly dressed, it's deeply embarrassing. If they were right, I'd try and fix it straight away! But it's not necessarily offensive - I'd prefer to be told if a button has come undone or my top is more see-through than I thought it was.

I would MUCH rather the comment came from a female friend or from my husband, though.

If a man (not my husband) slapped me on the bottom, I'd be very offended. This has happened to me. I told him never to do that again.

[V]

I would be far more offended by being touched. Having someone tell you off for clothing standards is one thing, but having some stranger touch any part of you (other than a handshake) is unpardonable.

Don't know if this makes much difference, but I am a 23 year old lady who dresses modestly (nothing too tight, just skirts or dresses, that sort of thing). I probably wouldn't be all that offended if someone told me my clothes were indecent because, quite frankly, I know that's not true.

Interesting question!

[Sophia]

As many have said, I would find the physical touch much, much more offensive. (for the record, I'm in my early 20s, and single) I don't even give "just-a-friend" hugs to young men I know well, so if I were patted on the backside by a strange man I would be mortified, upset, and very offended. And I can think of about five young men (including my brothers) who would forthrightly pound said offender if he tried it again. :-)

As for the comment, I might be going a little against the grain with this comment, but I'm not certain that would offend me in the least. It depends primarily on the way the comment was given. If the man seemed to be genuine and honest, I would listen to what he said and then re-evaluate whatever article of clothing was deemed immodest by showing it to a brother, or some other man who I trust, to see what they said. If they agreed with the stranger, then the article of clothing would either be altered or trashed. Of course, if the stranger spoke in a degrading way, or if he seemed to be mocking me, then I would be offended.

[Elaina,17]

I would be absolutely horrified if a strange man touched me in any way. Like some others have said, I would probably physically defend myself. As for correction, I think it would be more likely that I would be told to "loosen up" than to dress more modestly. But if I was to be admonished to dress better, I think I would be flattered that he cared enough for my welfare to say so. I would depend upon the situation however. I am likely not a normal American girl though. Sadly, being physically attractive is how many girls find their worth in our society today. It's probable that many times the only people that they feel loved by are telling them seductive is a good thing. In every girl’s heart I believe there is a hope to be loved by a man as his princess. To have someone who will value them for who they are, not what they are. Most have given up that it would ever be possible and settled for someone who will show love to them to use their body. I think more Christians need to value these girls enough to tell them the consequences of the way they dress and behave. To show them that they can hope for something better. That they can be loved everlastingly by the Prince of Peace. In Him, they will find security. I think we should be willing risk rejection, they are risking their physical and emotional safety.

Immodesty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, if I were in the middle east I might be called immodest for not covering my head. However, if it was some random greasy looking guy on the bus who felt the need inform me that I was dressed to his standards, can go straight to hell. Unwelcome touching by a stranger would get an unwelcome slap in the face or kick in the groin...period.

[Katie Gillet]

I think, in response to Sarah, that there's a big difference between being told that your whole outfit is immodest or having it pointed out that a button is undone/slip showing/shoe untied. All of those things could be the case by accident if one was dressed quite modestly.

[Leigh]

A stranger has every right to have an opinion about my clothes, and even to express his opinion if that makes him feel better, or if he thinks it would do me good to hear it; so long as he doesn't make a nuisance of himself, of course. However, he does not have a right to touch me without my express permission, and I would find it offensive in the extreme if he did. One is mere rudeness, which can be ignored; the other is a violation.

[Rebecca]

I am 27 and married.
Even pre-marriage, a slap on the butt by a complete stranger would have been horribly offensive and I would have thought him detestable, no matter how attractive. I think most young women, though they may dress immodestly to attract attention, are very possessive of their bodies and do not want anyone touching them.
They (as did I) also do not want anyone telling them what to do. I now look at photos of me in my late teens/early 20s and wish someone would have said something about my immodesty, I would have done something about it. I think that a woman would be more apt to accept criticism of the way she dresses from a trusted friend who she knows is lovingly thinking of her as a person, not an object. A stranger would come across as rude and judgemental - on his own agenda, not caring about her.

[Kristina]

I would be more upset by someone touching me. If a man thought my clothes were immodest and told me so, that would be a little weird, but it would be good to know so that I can fix any issues. Also, if he bothered to tell me that, I assume he has some concern for women dressing modestly, which is a good thing.

[Catherine R.]

I think I might know where you're going with this but for now I'll just say, I am a 28 year old female so I fit your demographic for the question. I am still refining my dress; for most of my life I had zero standards for modesty and I have only recently started to realize that it's important. When I dressed slutty, which was not rare, yes, I would get men saying things to me that led me to believe they saw me as a sex object. I have been touched also by a handful of strange men. None of them ever said "you dress immodest" I think only Christians even use the term "immodest" anyway. But they might as well have been saying "you look trampy" with their eyes, looking at me like I was a chicken wing and they were starving. So as for my response, it offended me every time. It offended me so much that I would fill with rage and often shout expletives at them.

In hindsight, it seems to me that I was deeply brainwashed by feminism which told me that I could dress however I want (which was always trampy and is for most who subscribe to this belief). Feminism would also tell me that men had no right to notice me even if I was wearing a see-through shirt with no bra. If they looked or said anything, it was they who had the problem, not me. It was just them trying to "objectify and oppress" me. So to answer your question, in the past, I would be equally offended by the guy who slapped me on the butt as I would be the guy who told me I dress immodest. These days, I would be more offended by a guy who told me I dress immodest. The butt slapper might just be some crazy person and you didn't say if the woman would be dressed immodest in the first scenario.

[Alicia]

If a strange man patted me on the backside, I'd find that very threatening. I experienced that form of sexual harassment as a teen and was outraged and afraid. I was also lectured on the way I was dressed, but only by my parents so perhaps that doesn't count. I would definitely say the touching would be worse than the comment. I don't consider men experts on female fashion, so I wouldn't care about his opinion. I'd be embarrassed if my female friends commented though (as a teenager).

[Mrs. B]

I know what the earlier posters mean about unwelcome touching of hair-what is with that, anyway. That's why I usually wear mine "up" and out of the way.
Now to the question at hand. There is one main difference between these two scenarios. With respect to someone touching a woman inappropriately, there are NO circumstances under which this could be inoffensive. With respect to advice regarding dress, there are very few (if any) circumstances under which this would be appropriate.
We really have to be careful when we encourage young ladies to dress modestly so that they can prevent men from thinking impure thoughts. There are some people who are going to think impure thoughts regardless of how you dress. Modest dress should be a reflection of a person's relationship with God, and nothing else. This is why unsolicited advice from men is not acceptable: how can a stranger possibly be qualified to counsel someone on their walk with God? Such words from a caring father, uncle, or other older RELATIVE could be beneficial. (Unless the pastor is a relative, I don't even think he should address this issue directly. This should be the office of the pastor's wife or other "mother" in the church.)
Yes, I'm really old-fashioned, but not everything old is bad!

[Samara]

Being inappropriately touched would be universally offensive to me due to my own sensibilities, and would generate a response on my part (and probably from those around me, given my usual company). Being told that I was immodestly/inappropriately dressed would seems generally inoffensive, especially given a context- for example, I have been asked to cover my hair before entering Orthodox churches in Russia. Of course, some stranger randomly approaching me to tell me that I am dressed immodestly (especially when I am dressed in a way that I don't find immodest) would strike me as tactless, but not necessarily offensive, and I would more than likely ignore him or her.

[amy]

In those days when I did dress to be "seen" I would have been highly offended if someone had told me how immodest I was more so than if some stranger gave me a pat on the backside (although I would have acted offended).

Although I now wish someone would have guided me in a better direction, I know I would not have been willing to listen, for I esteemed the world more and strived to reach their ideal. It wasn't until I was married that I would have been offended by the touching of a stranger, although my dress didn't change dramatically at that time.

[Robin]

This is such a great question. I had a knee-jerk response until I read some of the responses. Then, I thought back to my own high school and college years back in the late 80's. I was raised in a casual Christian home. My mom was very dedicated to the church, and my dad couldn't have cared less. My parents divorced when I was 16. I went to public school and pretty much stopped going to church and doing any religious activities when I got to college. I started partying and became very promiscuous during those years. About 10 years later, I came around and started going back to church and rededicated my life to Christ. Given my lifestyle choices, I have had similar experiences that I will share.

First, I'll say that I believe it all depends on context. If I were at a bar or a dance club, I would likely have been dressed somewhat immodestly (it was hard to shake my conservative background, so I wouldn't have worn some of what you see today). Given the context of that situation, I would have welcomed sexual advances - that was kind of the point of being at the club. If someone were to walk up to me and slap my behind and I found him attractive, I would have found it flattering. If the guy appeared too old, too bummy, or just really nerdy or unattractive, I would have been offended. If he didn't stop, I would have gotten angry and possibly a little fearful. I know that sounds awful, but it's true. Somehow, advances like these from attractive people aren't offensive.

If someone had commented on my attire as being immodest, in that context, I would probably have laughed it off, because, really, they only needed to look around.

Out in public would have been different. If someone I didn't know touched me inappropriately at the school library, I would have been creeped out and outraged. But, again, it might depend who it was. If it had been a cute college guy, I might have been flattered. If it had been the janitor or security guard, I would have been offended. One night, a group of friends and I were going to the library, and I was wearing something I felt strange in, trying to be sexy (I don't know why), and someone yelled out the car window, "lose some weight!" That's the closest I've come to anyone telling my I was dressed immodestly. It was embarrassing more than anything.

In 1987, I went to France for a study abroad program. We American girls were flirted with constantly by French men, but the French women seemed cold and mean. After 2 months, we American girls were also mean and cold. It was a defense against continual harrassment. In that context, it was annoying to just be approached because we were female and weren't frowning. It didn't matter what we were wearing or what we looked like. It was quite frustrating. I can't imagine living that day in and day out.

I also had an experience on the Metro where a man forced his erection into my armpit. I was stunned! I know that's not an innocent sexual advance, but it was certainly offensive. I didn't know what to do, so I just sort of sat there. After we got off the train, I told my friend about it. She said, "why didn't you elbow him or something?!" I told her I didn't want to be rude.

In some ways, girls now have it better and worse. They are not raised to be timid and just take it when someone does or says something offensive to them. On the other hand, they are also told they can do or say anything they want without consequences. You can't really have it both ways.

The real difficulty now is that what is deemed offensive is very subjective and can be confusing. When immodest dress and a highly sexualized culture is your "normal," how dare someone come tell you it's wrong.

[Donna]

I personally know of a young woman (19 years old) who was dressed for a night club (very short and very tight) in our Sunday morning service. My husband gently suggested that she was not properly dressed for the occasion, and that it was a distraction to the men of the church. She was extremely offended and she and her mom and brother never returned to our church.

It is sad that "what I want" is more important to young women (and some of the older ones) than "what is helpful for you."

[Jenna]

While I might feel embarrassed if someone were critical of my clothing choice, I don't think that I would be offended. I would be very offended, however, if a man (even if he weren't a total stranger) were to touch me in a sexual way.

[lemondaisy]

Both would bother me.
As stated above it would be deeply embarrassing to be judged by a stranger, though approach would make a difference.

"Just wanted to let you know that your blouse is attracting some very immodest comments and you seem too nice for that."follewed by a quick nod and departure would be fine.

"Hey, your boobs are showing!" would not be okay even if it were true.

Physical touch is out of the question though unfortunately in some places (legitimate, not strip bars, either), I'd be too afraid I'd be hit back if I retaliated. Sad but true.

[Ell]

The touching is acceptable by society at large--even desirable as a sign of being "hot" as others have stated it. I don't think it would be looked upon by the majority of young women--even the "good girls"--as improper, but rather as affirmation.

I don't know where you live, but I live in the midwest and touching strangers is absolutely off limits. You just don't do it. I, and I think most women, would be more upset by an unwanted touch, if only because it's initially a scarier situation than some blowhard harassing you about your dress. And after having a few seconds to think about it, I think they'd be more offended by the touch as well. This is in the same vein as the girl with long hair or pregnant women - they don't like to be grabbed by strangers either, no matter how good the intentions. If it's not yours, don't touch it.

[Rachele Ann]

While I would be upset with either scenario, I have to say I find an inappropriate touch less offensive. Sadly, our culture has taught us to expect little else from men.

If I was accused of immodest dress, it means the man studied me. It meant that the man looked me over, including my mannerisms and made a judgment about me. I find that much more intrusive than a wayward had touching my body because it touches the core of my person.

I do dress modestly although as a young woman I try to avoid being dowdy. Perhaps because I make a conscious effort to dress modestly that influences my response to this question.

[Georgia]

To the man who wrote this post you seem to be obsessed with what the young lady is wearing. That does not say much about you. The woman is not responsible for your lusting YOU ARE!!!! Read the paper or your bible or take a cold shower.

[Anon]

The touching would be worse. The clothes comment would make me uncomfortable and embarrassed, as in many situations I would begin to think the person just may be right even though I do aim to dress modestly. But I don't think the comment would offend me unless said in certain ways, like said as if somebody I didn't know had something against me upon seeing me or judged me to be loose. If a stranger seemed genuinely concerned and to be trying to be helpful I don't think that'd be offensive--or only minimally so. Being touched, though, would make me feel violated.

For the record I'm a single 24 year-old Christian. One who has never so much as kissed a guy. I don't wear low cut tops without a shirt beneath. I don't wear shirts skin tight. And I don't wear skirts that come above my knees or closely follow each curve of my body.

[eorlingas]

How about neither? Does neither work for you?

My stomach churns at both. I wouldn't want my father, husband, or brother approaching a complete stranger with such a personal and critical comment.

[Lisa]

I think that some girls wouldn't be offended by a slap, if its at college, or some group, were she knows all the guys and continually flirts with them.

If it was by some random stranger in public, then yes, that would be very innapropriate and disturbing.

If she was told in public, in front of a lot of people, by a man, a stranger, that she was dressed immodestly, then she would be offended, esp. if she were with like-minded friends, but more embarassed, if a lot of people they started nodding their heads agreeing and she was alone.

Remember, most young ladies out there just dress in the current fashion thinking its "in" and "cute". If they knew exactly what men were thinking and exactly what the word "immodest" meant, they wouldn't be dressing immodestly. To be told that they are dressing immodestly could more likely mean to them that the way their dressing insults the "conservative" man, and not that they are hurting their dignitity and belitting their womanly nature.

To be slapped by a stranger in public will always be considered wrong. Remember, there are a lot of feminists out there who don't believe men should touch them at all in that way... Also, there is a lot of awareness of sexual predators, and that situation would just be frightening, indeed.

[michelle]

As a Christian woman who attempts to dress modestly, I'd be much more offended by a man touching me inappropriately than telling me my dress was inappropriate. If I'm being immodest, I want to know so that I can change my outlook and approach right away.

[Heather]

I personally think that commenting on a person's mode of dress is rude, unless you are family, or a very close friend. While I try to always be dressed in a decent manner, I would be very offended if someone told me they thought otherwise.
If a man were to touch me inappropriately, lets just say he would need some serious reconstructive surgery on his face (and probably several other body parts). I have two redneck brothers and a pretty big husband, who would take a pretty dim view of the matter.

[Elizabeth Esther]

I would be more offended by the touch than the comment.

Once, in highschool, a completely gross guy slapped my butt.

I spun around and whacked him on the face. He was stunned.

I was wearing a long skirt and modest sweater.

The guy was just a jerk.

If someone told me I was dressed immodestly, I would appreciate their candor and would hasten to cover myself.

[Keren]

While I don't think it would be appropriate (in most situations) for a man to personally address and issue of modesty in a woman, I would DEFINITELY be much more offended by a man touching me.

[eorlingas]

There is a glitch or something on this site. I use the name "eorlingas," and the "neither" comment is mine. My comment was not Anon, and the comment after it is not really by me, even though it says eorlingas. Just wanted to clarify.

[anon.]

Well, I don't think I'm a "normal American young woman." I'm a middle aged, conservative American woman, but...I believe if the man's rebuke for the woman dressing immodestly, it could be much less offensive than the pat on the rumpus. If the man were to gently, with respect scold her for dressing improperly, that should be welcomed. Taking her slightly aside...prefacing it with something like, "This is terribly awkward, but I think you would want to know that when you bend the slightest bit, people can see down your blouse."
The "feeling" of that is very different from a guy copping a grope. The rebuke is for the *woman's* good, whereas the grope is an inappropriate, selfish act.
Great question.

[Mrs. D.]

Because some of the "secular" (as they prefer to call themselves) girls were up in arms over the fact that we freakishly modest women were trying to "speak for them", I will only speak for myself.
I am a 25 yo new wife. Before I met my husband, I had a few guys, that I didn't know very well, who touched me. I must be honest and say that I was quite pleased with their forwardness, especially since I wasn't dressed immodestly. Now that I'm married, I would be appalled should anyone try to touch in an inappropriate manner. Sad isn't it?
As for the second half of the question, I have never been told I was dressed immodestly. However, I did approach a girl at church privately, once, about her inappropriate dress. In reply, she looked at me with disgust, and left the room. I'm assuming she took offense to my comment. I haven't tried to tell anyone else since that they are dressed immodestly. Obviously, in their own mind, they aren't!

[Kourtney Kartchner]

I would definately be more offended if a strange man touched me. If a man took notice to how modestly i was dressed, i would thank him! This shows that he has respect for women and realizes that they dont need to flaunt themselves in public. Then again, i would be a little offended if i were trying to dress modestly and he still pointed that out.

[Katie]

I would most definitely be most offended by a strange man touching me. Once in a crowed restaurant I had a man touch me on my lower back, and I was extremely angry. I have never had someone I didn't know say anything about my being dressed immodestly, but I think that a comment like that wouldn't be quite as offensive. However, I don't think that that is an appropriate comment for a strange man to make to a girl. I personally only ask my father and a few very trusted male friends (because my brothers aren't old enough) to make judgement on my clothing choices. I would appreciate it if one of them would tell me something like that out of love, but for a stranger to be saying it I think that there are much better ways of handling a situation like that. A man should never discuss something like that with a women he doesn't know.

[Ariana]

I(14 year old homeschooler)think that if any man touched me in an innappropiate way, I would sternly tell them to never do it again, tell my parents, and never come near that man again.My parents would talk to that man.Once a man that I knew tickled me twice, I told my mom then kept my distance, and it never happened again. I would be much more offended, angry rather, at the touch. If someine told me my clothing was immodest,I think it depends on who it is, because if I knew the person well, I would know that what they are saying is true. But if they were a stranger, I would just pass it by.It might sting my pride, but I would not be offended.

[Ariana]

I agree with Kourtney

[RM]

I'm a 22 year old college student, in a pretty liberal area/university. I know I would be more offended if a strange man touched me, than if someone were to tell me I dressed immodestly (I'm a jeans kind of person anyway). I think guys here kind of think they have the "right" to touch you----or maybe I'm just the kind of person that values personal space, and do not like being grabbed.

[Alexandra]

I hate being touched by strangers, *period.* I'm a very private person.

[Carrie]

I'm 36, married and a conservative Christian, so I'm not "normal," but here is my two cents. I would feel afraid if someone touched me uninvited (I think other ladies have a good point about the response depending on the "sort" of person doing the touching), but deeply embarrassed if he said I was dressed immodestly.

That being said, I couldn't say what would bother a "normal" girl more.

[Dee]

I believe that the answer to your question depends a great deal on the young woman. If she has a poor self image or low self esteem then I think she would not mind the touching as much as the comment. In fact she might well consider the touching a form of positive attention. But the comment about her dress would be totally unappreciated.
If the young lady has a healthy self esteem, then, I think she would be highly offended by unwelcome touching. But she would still be offended by a commment about her clothing.

[Anna]

An unsolicited touch with sexual overtones is /never/ non-threatening. Knowingly invading a stranger's personal space that way is always a threat, and it crosses a very clear line into deeply inappropriate behavior. I would be furious and offended, no matter how cute he was, or how cute he said I was, or how desirable it means I am. I would view it as an act of aggression, and would immediately get far away from the man to protect myself from further interaction with him.

I wouldn't care if a stranger told me my dress was immodest. I know my standards and I don't feel compelled to worry about anyone else's. I might be upset if a parent, religious leader or trusted friend told me my dress was immodest. A stranger? Never.

[Cate]

I agree with K. Both men exhibit offensive and potentially very frightening behaviour. The best that can be said for the self-appointed modesty policeman is that he hasn’t attacked me _yet_. I would be a fool not to consider that he might not do so. After all, in making his comment he has shown himself so obsessed with my body as a sexual object that he goes against societal norms of courtesy in order to tell me so. I’m going to get away from him very fast indeed.

Re. the very possibility of a “non-threatening” unwanted physical approach, how would you have felt, as a 17 year old schoolboy, about receiving a “gentle pat on the rump” from a man who was bigger, heavier, and stronger than you, and from whom said pat could be taken as an indication of sexual interest? Would you think the behaviour of this stranger who thinks he can just put his hand on your behind was “non-threatening”? How would you expect the average 17 year old schoolboy to feel today? Pretty unnerved? Well, why do you think the average girl would be any different? Strange men putting their hands on my body - any part of my body - is by definition threatening!

[sarah]

Just commenting again.

I think, on reflection, that what disturbs me about a man commenting on my dress is that it can have another kind of meaning.

I personally wouldn't intentionally wear a low/tight/revealing top. But suppose I'd made a mistake and my top was a little revealing when I bent over. If my grandmother points that out to me, it's helpful.

If a strange man decides to comment on my modesty, he may say, "Your top is too low cut", but what he's really saying is, "I'm looking at your boobs". It's creepy and unpleasant. No nice guy would do that.

Guys, if you think a girl is immodestly dressed, why not avert your eyes and leave it to another woman to make a comment?

[Katy]

I would be way more offended by being touched in a sexual way by a stranger than being told I am dressed immodestly. I would, however, be confused and embarrassed by the latter. I am 25 and married.

[Hypatia]

Hope this isn't coming along too late -- just found your link on the Ladies Against Feminism site. I am an unmarried woman of 24, and I personally would think the *other* person was much ruder to touch me in an unwanted way than to make an unsolicited comment. The comment would hurt my feelings for sure -- but a good bit of my annoyance would come from feeling guilty or worried about what they thought. (Now, I think I'd have this reaction no matter how I was dressed when they made the comment; my final assessment would, I hope, be based on my own standards of modesty and not those of a commenting passerby.)

So, the touch would be more purely offensive, but the comment might hurt for longer -- I'd know more certainly that the touch was the *other* person's failing.

[Hypatia]

Also, I agree with Anna -- there's really no such thing as an unthreatening unsolicited touch, and I certainly wouldn't take it as a compliment!

[rosalba]

It's rude both to comment on a stranger's inappropriateness of attire without a really good reason, AND to touch some one in a rude way. I'm conservative; I'm a Catholic Christian and I would be offended by both happenings. I would feel much less resentful towards some one who criticized my attire, though, if it was well meant. However, such comments might have potential to "cut deeper" because it implies something negative about one's character and morals. Inappropriate touching, on the other hand, primarily indicates a sad fixation on the physical aspects of women on the part of the offender. Unless I was dressed or behaving inappropriately, I would not feel that such an occurrence was a reflection on my character, but on his.

I agree with another commenter that it would be more useful and accurate if commenters could describe their own reactions, rather than just guessing at the norm.

[Mrs. S]

When I was sixteen I was wearing an extremely immodest swimsuit to a school function which was, in part, chaperoned by my mother. Another chaperone (who did not know who I was)looked at me, and said to my mother, can you believe someone would allow their daugter to dress that way? At the time, both my mother and I were very offended, and my choices in clothing were not affected. Later, in college, I had several experiences with the inappropriate touching, and I ashamedly admit that I was only slightly offended IF the guy was not someone I was interested in. It made me feel attractive. If I was interested, there was no offense at all. Since that time I have seen more of the self-centeredness of feminism and would now be ashamed but glad to be told if someone told me that I was immodestly dressed.

[Katryna]

First of all, being touched by a stranger in an obviously sexual way is not non-threatening, at least not to me. That being said, I beleive that most 'normal American women' would be more offended by having their morals challenged than they would by having their personal space violated in the way that you have suggested. The former is a charge against their very character as a woman. The latter reflects much more on the character of the perpetrator.

[Lorna]

I'm 28, English/Scottish, and married. To give my opinion, I might be somewhat offended or embarassed if somebody (man or woman) told me I was dressed immodestly. Mind you, I might not care: if I felt I was dressed modestly by my own and my family's standards (and we're not radical or flashy types!), I'd probably just let the comments wash over me.

I would, however, be pretty likely to be seriously offended or upset by univited and potentially agressive physical contact. It's just so much more of a direct invasion, if you see what I mean.

Of course, it all depends on context: my own male friends, and male friends of my husband with whom I am very comfortable, will hug me to say hello and goodbye, and this is fine for me: I know there's absolutely no intention other than a friendly greeting. I guess the problem really arises when you get physical advances towards you made by men with whom you don't have this kind of well-defined relationship.

[darcee]

I think there are a lot of variables to take into consideration. The age and attractiveness of the strange man in question would honestly play a part in it. So to make it fair say a man of similar age who is not unattractive.

In the moment the touch would be far worse to me personally. There is something about a violation of personal space that is very deep, it makes a woman feel insecure and vulnerable. But once the moment was past the words would play more on my mind. They would be the deeper offense in the long term.

While unwanted and offensive, in a way a "pat on the backside" is also an affirmation that you are attractive and desirable. There is no way to interpret being told you are dressed "immodest, immoral or inappropriate" as anything other than a personal insult.

[V.S.]

I'm coming up on 30 now, so no longer such a young woman, but as a young woman I was more upset by the touching. As a teenager I was told by the adults in my life (teachers, my mother, etc) that my classmates' hands brushing against my chest and rear were "accidental" and complaining just gave the toucher the attention he wanted. Since I was wearing a school uniform with no alterations (in other words, not halfway up my thigh like some of my female classmates' uniforms) and all appropriate buttons buttoned, it's unlikely that it was my clothing provoking them. It was feminism that gave me back my right to tell guys to stop touching me in sexual ways. Up until finding feminism the prevailing view in my life was that men had the right to touch me and if they did it must be because of how I dressed. I tried to dress as modestly as possible, but that got me more attention than my more "sexy" classmates.

I've never actually been told I was dressing immodestly, except once at 14. My mother had chosen my outfit (a skin tight black dress that went down to mid-thigh) and I knew it was inappropriate for the church event we were going to, but she had thrown out my "little girl" nice dresses and the jeans and t-shirts I had for every day wear were inappropriate, as was my school uniform. I put a vest over it (against my mother's wishes), but I knew it was immodest and I wasn't happy about it. So when people told me it was immodest (these were my peers and they weren't nice about it. The word sl*t and various slang for prostitutes were used) I bawled. But I wasn't offended, because I knew they were right. I just didn't want to dress that way to begin with.

Usually people say other things about my clothing -- that it's old fashioned or not fashionable, that I look like a pilgrim or otherwise weird, and that doesn't bother me. Probably if someone claimed that my clothing was immodest it would similarly not bother me. If I care about dressing modestly then I dress modestly, if I don't, then why would I care that other people think my clothing is not modest? I typically wear long dresses with modest necklines. I do sometimes show my elbows, but never my knees. So if anyone were to tell me I was immodestly dressed I'd have to assume their standards were far stricter than most people's, including my own.

[Rose]

I'm a 20-year-old daughter, and I would be really offended if someone touched me like that! I don't even want to french kiss a guy until I'm married. On the other hand, I would be disappointed in myself if someone said my clothing was immodest because I try to dress modestly all the time.

[Jennifer]

I'd be more offended by the touching. If someone thinks I dress immodestly and he feels the need to tell me so, I'd just think the person was rude; I wouldn't take it personally.

[Bethany]

Without a doubt, the touching. The woman might show more outrage to the commenter, but I think that she would be more deeply offended by someone physically harassing her person.